Why Bitcoin Really Exists | Matt Luongo and Arthur Hayes
In this episode of Talking Tokens, Jacquelyn Melinek speaks with Matt Luongo, co-founder of Mezo, and Arthur Hayes, CIO of Maelstrom and co-founder of BitMEX, about why they see bitcoin as the best collateral ever created and what it means to build a financial system on top of it. Matt explains how Mezo is rebuilding banking on bitcoin by letting holders borrow against their BTC rather than spend it, and why the lending market that blew up last cycle is now being rebuilt onchain with better infrastructure. Arthur shares why he treats bitcoin purely as a liquidity barometer, why governments will always choose to print rather than accept consequences, and why that makes bitcoin the only rational long-term savings asset. The two walk through what sustainable bitcoin yield actually looks like versus the token-printing schemes that failed in the last cycle and how institutions holding bitcoin on their balance sheet are deploying it. The conversation also covers Arthur's personal philosophy on leverage, Matt's experience financing his house with bitcoin, and why both guests believe people shouldn’t sell your BTC, just borrow against it. Arthur Hayes: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/cryptohayes/ LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/arthur-hayes-b493b42/ Substack - https://cryptohayes.substack.com/ Web: https://www.cryptohayes.com X - https://x.com/cryptohayes
Maelstrom Fund: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/maelstromfund Web - https://www.maelstrom.fund X - https://x.com/maelstromfund
TIMESTAMPS
(00:00) Intro (01:37) Why Matt built Mezo and what drew Arthur in with his big picture thesis (02:23) Arthur on Maelstrom, his family office, and why bitcoin needs to be useful (03:16) The state of bitcoin in 2026 (05:57) Bitcoin as a liquidity alarm: why it rises and falls with global money printing (08:47) Governments choosing bailouts over consequences, and how bitcoin can win (15:04) How to think about risk before going max long bitcoin (20:39) What macro patterns Arthur and Matt actually track (23:41) What sustainable bitcoin yield looks like versus token-printing schemes (25:24) Why a lot of bitcoin holders have never had access to standard DeFi (32:36) How institutions with BTC on their balance sheet are thinking about yield today (34:26) Why every DeFi exploit sets institutional adoption back and what changes that (37:03) Bitcoin as collateral: what it actually unlocks for holders (38:25) How Matt and Arthur each got into crypto (44:41) Is it too late to buy bitcoin? The conversations people are actually having now (45:55) Market outlook and price predictions
ESSENTIALS
You can subscribe to the podcast on Spotify, Apple or YouTube. If you enjoy the show, please leave a review — it really helps. Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0LOgWxIQ0NnNUD5eXsSuoZ Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talking-tokens/id1743669141 Follow us on X Jacquelyn: https://twitter.com/jacqmelinek Talking Tokens: https://twitter.com/_TalkingTokens Follow us on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/_talkingtokens/ Note: This podcast is for informational purposes only. Views shared are opinions, not financial advice. The host or guests may have financial interests in discussed content.
Why Bitcoin Really Exists | Matt Luongo and Arthur Hayes
Subscribe & Listen
More from Talking Tokens
Why Fomo Thinks Social Trading Is the Next Big Investing Shift
In today's episode of Talking Tokens, Jacquelyn sits down with Se Yong Park , co-founder of Fomo, a social-first trading app with about 3 million users, to discuss how social media, blockchain and changing consumer behavior are reshaping how people discover and invest in financial markets. Se breaks down why Fomo abstracts away wallets, gas, bridges and chains, how the platform is reaching users outside traditional crypto channels, and why social trading could become a much bigger part of investing. They also discuss bringing more assets onchain, tokenized equities, transparent trading activity, creator-driven market discovery and how younger investors are approaching financial markets differently. Timestamps 00:00 Intro 01:33 How Fomo Reached Millions of Users 02:03 Why Se Yong Park Built Fomo 03:11 Making Investing Easier to Understand 03:48 Making Trades Public 05:03 What 3 Million Users Reveal About New Investors 05:48 Reaching People Outside Crypto 06:45 Why Fomo Targets Instagram and Social Audiences 07:06 Making Crypto Infrastructure Invisible 08:33 What Fomo Got Wrong About Consumer Behavior 09:28 Is Social Trading the Future? 11:35 What's Next for Fomo 12:30 How Social Media Is Changing Market Discovery 13:51 What Fomo Has Learned From Trader Behavior 14:38 Educating and Rewarding Users 16:03 Lessons From Building in Crypto 17:02 Competition and Growing the Onchain Market 17:40 Why Fomo Uses Blockchain 18:03 What Users Are Trading 19:47 How Much Are Users Trading With? 20:40 Security and Risk 21:31 Bringing More Assets Onchain 22:00 The Next Generation of Investors 22:48 Will AI Change Social Trading? 23:43 Se’s Advice for Crypto Founders 🔔 New episodes every week https://open.spotify.com/show/0LOgWxIQ0NnNUD5eXsSuoZ https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talking-tokens/id1743669141 🌐 Follow Jacquelyn Melinek https://x.com/jacqmelinek?lang=en https://www.linkedin.com/in/jacquelynmelinek ➡️ Follow Se Yong Park https://www.linkedin.com/in/se-yong-park-634782120 https://x.com/seyong #Fomo #SocialTrading #Crypto #OnchainFinance #Investing
What Could Take For Ethereum to Hit $10,000
In today's episode of Talking Tokens, Jacquelyn sits down with Kevin Lepsoe, founder of ETHGas, to discuss how Ethereum could evolve into faster, more efficient financial infrastructure and what that could mean for institutions, DeFi and AI agents. Kevin Lepsoe breaks down ETHGas's vision for real-time Ethereum, why faster blockspace could bring liquidity back to the network, and the practical barriers institutions face when moving large amounts of capital onchain. They also discuss Ethereum's institutional comeback, why traditional credit relies on so many intermediaries, how smart contracts could reshape banking, and why AI agents may naturally gravitate toward DeFi as they begin transacting at machine speed. Timestamps 00:00 Intro 01:24 Ethereum's Institutional Shift 03:21 What's Still Missing From DeFi 05:43 Building Real-Time Ethereum 06:15 Why Blockspace Matters 07:21 What If Ethereum Were 100x Faster? 09:02 ETH as Strategic Infrastructure 11:51 Is Ethereum Having a Comeback? 13:19 ETHGas as Ethereum's “Supercharger” 14:40 Kevin's $10,000K ETH Thesis 16:43 Ethereum Treasury Companies 18:09 What Ethereum Needs Next 18:41 Bringing Institutional Capital Onchain 20:26 Why Institutions Want to Move Onchain 21:50 Can DeFi Cut Out Banking Middlemen? 23:54 What Institutions Want From Ethereum 25:40 AI Meets Onchain Finance 25:53 Why AI Agents Could Choose DeFi 27:15 Building Through Ethereum's Market Cycles 28:31 Ethereum's Decentralization Advantage 29:46 Where Ethereum Could Be in One Year 🔔 New episodes every week https://open.spotify.com/show/0LOgWxIQ0NnNUD5eXsSuoZ https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talking-tokens/id1743669141 🌐 Follow Jacquelyn Melinek https://x.com/jacqmelinek?lang=en https://www.linkedin.com/in/jacquelynmelinek ➡️ Follow Kevin Lepsoe https://x.com/lepsoe This episode is sponsored by Forgd, visit its Market Maker Leaderboard on Token Relations here: www.stratamedia.co/token-relations/leaderboard Today’s episode is sponsored by Anchorage Digital, America's first federally chartered digital asset bank and provider of regulated stablecoin issuance. To find out more, visit anchorage.com This episode is sponsored by Binance, the world’s number-one crypto exchange, trusted by over 300 million people. Discover more at: https://binance.onelink.me/y874/talkingtokens . NOTE: Binance is not available in certain countries, including the U.S.; check its Terms for more information: https://www.binance.com/en/terms #Ethereum #ETHGas #DeFi #OnchainFinance #ETH
How Injective Is Building Financial Markets Onchain
In today's episode of Talking Tokens, Jacquelyn sits down with Eric Chen, co-founder and CEO of Injective Labs, the team behind the Injectivea blockchain built for financial applications, to discuss what comes next for tokenization, onchain finance and institutional adoption. Eric explains why simply tokenizing assets isn't enough, where he sees the biggest opportunities for bringing financial markets onchain, and how Injective is building infrastructure for advanced financial products. They also discuss RWA perpetual markets, tokenized stocks, capital formation, institutional adoption, AI agents and the future of blockchain & powered financial infrastructure. Timestamps 00:00 Intro 00:58 How Eric Chen Started Injective 03:07 Should Founders Still Drop Out of College? 05:27 Why AI Reminds Eric of Early Crypto 07:24 The Security Problem AI Can't Solve 09:27 Injective's Vision for Onchain Finance 11:21 Why Tokenization Is Accelerating 12:31 What Injective's Transfer Agent Registration Enables 14:32 $215M in RWA Perpetual Volume 16:33 Are Perpetual Markets the Future of RWAs? 17:52 Why Tokenizing Assets Isn't Enough 20:16 What's Moving Onchain Faster Than Expected 21:45 What Institutions Are Building on Injective 24:25 What Makes an Asset Useful Onchain? 27:21 Will Onchain Finance Compete With Banks? 27:52 Why Institutional Tokenization Is Accelerating 29:08 What Should Actually Move Onchain? 31:14 What Enterprises Want From Blockchain 33:48 Will Blockchain Become Invisible Infrastructure? 35:37 What Onchain Finance Could Look Like in 5–10 Years 37:26 What Injective Got Wrong 38:29 What Eric Is Watching Next 39:00 AI Agents Move From Analysis to Execution (timestamp needs verification) 41:27 What Eric Won't Trust AI With 41:40 Eric's Advice for Builders Today’s episode is sponsored by Anchorage Digital, America's first federally chartered digital asset bank and provider of regulated stablecoin issuance. To find out more, visit anchorage.com This episode is sponsored by Forgd, visit its Market Maker Leaderboard on Token Relations here: www.stratamedia.co/token-relations/leaderboard New episodes every week https://open.spotify.com/show/0LOgWxIQ0NnNUD5eXsSuoZ https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talking-tokens/id1743669141 Follow Jacquelyn Jacquelyn on X: /jacqmelinek Talking Tokens on X: /_talkingtokens Talking Tokens on Instagram: /_talkingtokens Follow Eric Chen https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-chen-b12255421 https://x.com/ericinjective?lang=en